I got a call early this morning and when I answered there was no caller. I saw it was from a relative so I called back and clearly heard a hang up. I feared it was about my aunt in a nursing home, so I sent a text message. Surprisingly he answered my text. It later dawned on me that he wanted my answer in writing. He asked about a withdrawal I made from my aunt's bank account because "the facility" was questioning it.
I replied that they can ask me directly (I am POA) and provided my contact information and address (which he has). To further cooperation, I explained that when I reviewed my aunt's bank account she was over the amount of the eligibility for Medicaid, perhaps from the covid stimulus, and I withdrew the amount to maintain her eligibility for the yearly certification. This would be the same response I would give to 'the facility' if they in fact called. This money was spent on miscellaneous items she might appreciate.
Since this relative asked about the small amount I withdrew, I asked about the larger amount which was withdrawn with the stimulus deposited. As the POA, I have no problem being transparent. He said his withdrawal was not the amount in question and not relevant. I doubt that my cousin uses these words and felt it was someone from adult protective services asking these questions. The facility director is more friendly with my relative as the medical POA, however has treated me with suspicion. As the financial POA, I have tried to stick with the responsibility at hand and dismiss the negative suspicion.
I have a full plate with my mother, this covid, and her home, along with maintaining my sanity. I communicate with my aunt weekly by phone but there is not much more I can do than make sure her bills are paid. It's such a sad situation.
How should I follow up on the money my cousin withdrew without explanation to me as the POA.
As we always say on Forum, off to the Lawyer you go, if there is some suspicion of fraud being perpetrated on an Aunt you have FPOA for.
My aunt has no living children and her husband passed. She has only nieces and nephews. In 2010 she moved to CA to be with family and appointed me as secondary POA and another nephew as primary (however he resigned). It was confusing to me as well: I believed that she assigned the cousin in question as the new poa when she chose to live with his family. His wife took care of my aunt's banking. I did not involve myself with her financial decisions for a decade. There was no record of the FPOA when she was hospitalized until I produced what I thought was an old one. The primary poa nephew said he did not want the responsibility and signed a withdrawal letter. I gave that poa and resignation to the facility, bank, etc. I reviewed my aunt's financials and put everything on automatic and review. Other than the pandemic stimulus and small amounts there is nothing apparently wrong. Any amount could be explained as an arrangement they previously had. My relative and his wife have taken over my aunt's by adding their name to her account after I produced the poa and the facility refuses to acknowledge the poa. I did call APS about the joint account but nothing came of it although I reported that she was in a nursing facility which requires an ombudsman usually. Yes, as poa it is my ballpark still.
The stimulus check does not count when it comes to the account cap. You have a year to spend it, that will be next May, I think. It can be gifted or given to a charity.
You need to give the facility a copy of your POA. Your relative deducting money should not be allowed and you have a right to take him off the acct. You may want to see if you can open a new account with just you and Aunt on it. Make sure Medicaid knows of the change. I would redeposit the money taken out. No money should be deducted unless its for your Aunt personally. Her Personal Needs acct is counted in the amount allowed. So make sure it is spent. Again, u should be the only one, other than your Aunt, to be able to deduct from a PNA.
EXAMPLE:
An unmarried resident receives $1,050 monthly Social Security benefit and has $1,800 in savings. Each
month she pays the nursing facility $1,000 from her income, and keeps $50 for personal needs.
After receiving the $1,200 stimulus payment in May 2020, her payment obligation to the nursing facility
does not change. She continues to pay $1,000 monthly.
After receiving the stimulus payment, her savings will increase from $1,800 to $3,000. To retain
Medicaid eligibility, she must spend down her savings to under $2,000 within a year—before May 2021.
Are There Restrictions on How I Can Spend the Stimulus Money?
In general, a resident can spend the stimulus money as they wish, including gifts and charitable
contributions. This is the resident’s money to spend on their wants and needs.
If you want to know why your cousin withdrew money, I’ve got 2 angles I would try. So he won’t get defensive or brush you off. First one is if she is on Medicaid—you could say it’s time to submit her financials for her annual renewal and they need to know how that money was spent. If she’s not on Medicaid, do you file her taxes? If yes I would ask him if it was for a prescription or a copay under the pretense you need to know so you can write it off when you file her taxes.
The nursing home has been shady and I believe my cousin and/or the social worker at the nursing home is acting as the personal representative of my aunt rather than honor the power of attorney. The nursing home and my cousin have excluded me from information once I produced the power of attorney. I live at a distance so I review accounts online and comply with medicaid. I planned on filing a conservatorship because it's difficult to reconcile medical procedures with billing. However I have my mother who was on hospice earlier and now on palliative care and my plate is full.
I assume you do not want to confront the person that did this. If yuor willing to confront him it is real simple.. He needs to return it.
Go to the bank. Don't call them. Explain the situation. At a minumum change all access to the account IE passwords, signatures. If it were me I would strongly consider opening a new account.
Frankly this is a preventable problem
You have Financial power of attorney.
Yes?
It is your responsibility to know every detail of every cent coming into or going out of your aunt's accounts. For your cousin(?) to suggest that you do not need to know the details of a withdrawal is nonsensical. It is precisely your responsibility to know that.
Let us assume that the withdrawal was made quite properly and for quite legitimate purposes. You still need to know what they were.
By contrast, you are not strictly speaking accountable to your MPOA relative for how you manage your aunt's finances (though you certainly may be accountable to APS, and therefore it would be helpful to everyone for their involvement to be declared, if they have been involved). However, given that he is responsible for her welfare - including peace of mind, just for example - I think you acted quite properly in explaining a point he questioned.
The irony is that *nobody* is doing anything wrong, here! The problem seems to be a sort of miasma of anxiety and suspicion about what the other might be "up to." Is there any way you and he could just clear the air, including with the facility's director and APS if those parties have got involved?
PS Everyone is always more guarded and suspicious about money. So you are absolutely right to be transparent, a); and b) do your best not to take any open or covert watching or probing personally.
This morning I sent a message to cousin that I found his questioning strange since there was no greeting or discussion of my aunt. 'Clearing the air' has been a tough one.
Have you discussed any of this with your aunt?
If your aunt wishes for you to continue being her POA, then she should trust you to be in control of her finances and not allow your cousin to interfere in financial matters.
Why is your aunt’s facility asking your cousin about financial matters when you are the POA?
Your cousin is overstepping her grounds.
Your aunt is the only one that can straighten this out.
If you don’t want your cousin’s interference, and your aunt won’t remove your cousin from access to financial matters then you have every right to surrender your position if that’s what you want to do.
Best of luck to you.
For what purpose? He is the MPOA, and has ZERO need to access her money. If it was a small amount, perhaps let it slide, but if it was 100's or more, I would want to know what this cousin is up to. He's done it once, what's to stop him from doing it again? What happens when he takes so much that she doesn't have enough to cover the NH cost?
IF there was no dementia involved, we could all throw our hands up in the air and say Gee Whiz Auntie, whatrudoing? However, she DOES have dementia. There's no reason for him to be on her account, but sadly whoever processed this at the bank had no clue she has dementia. What's done is done, but it CAN be rectified.
I would still want some reckoning for whatever he took out, as you have to report any/all funds used. That may take some finesse (Medicaid or SS is asking or they may penalize her, think up some good excuse, or CC the letter to the attorney who handled the POAs.)
You likely won't be able to get him off the account, BUT if you go with SS rep payee, once approved they will send the next payment as a live check, you open a special rep payee account, deposit it and notify SS of the account so they can switch back to electronic deposits. No need to close the other account, just use any remaining funds for her NH and/or other needs, until it is 0 balance or whatever minimum amount is required. It'll just sit there.
As I noted in some replies to comments, LEGALLY this is how anyone should manage another person's SS funds, per SS. You would be the only person allowed to access the account - not even auntie can touch it. You could also do conservatorship, but 1) that costs money and you have to report often to the court and 2) applying to be rep payee is FREE, and the reporting is yearly, fairly simple and can be done online, via your own SS account.
NOTE: in one reply you made you mentioned the in person appt with SS. Yes, it has to be in person, BUT it doesn't have to be local to where she lives. Use your own local SS office. That's how I did it for my mother. One visit, answer their questions, wait for approval, open rep payee account, dep 1st check and have SS resume direct deposit thereafter. Report is done yearly, is fairly simple, can be done online via your SS acct, no big deal and it prevents ANYONE else touching her funds. Even auntie can't touch it.
One caveat: When the application is made, they send a letter to you and your LO notifying both of you of this. IF someone is doing something untoward, they may see this and try to take action, such as having your aunt call and refuse the attempt (I forget exactly what was in the letters, but it is notice to allow a person to refuse - probably to prevent some jerk trying to take over when there is no need!)
IF this happens, I would get some legal advice and proceed to find out who is coercing her and/or go for conservatorship. At that point, since she has dementia, clearly someone is up to no good.
My aunt asked the social worker to put me on her emergency contact list and allow medical info (hipaa). This was when she first arrived from the hospital to the rehab. The sw said "it's too late" she cannot make decisions. I questioned if in time with recovery this could be reassessed. In an emergency, someone is not competent, but this is not necessarily permanent. My aunt was weak but to me, still aware and essentially herself as I've known her. The director seemed unprofessionally annoyed that I would question her 'incapacity'.
When I found out cousin had a mpoa signed just prior to the hospitalization, I aske him if he could sign a medical release. I brought the letter to his home for his signature and his wife (as agents). He signed and his wife seemed offset that I arrived without invitation. She avoided me and did not sign. My cousin said his signature was only needed. The facility denied the medical release without his wife signature. I tried again, nicely, and communicated what was needed. His wife insisted that she called the facility and gave her ok for the medical release.
I met an attorney briefly who required 1k to meet my aunt and 3k as a retainer for conservatorship. I thought the ombudsman could accomplish a new mpoa signing. I travelled again for maybe the third time to meet with the ombudsman and my aunt.
The facility activity director was with my aunt when I arrived and presented effusively his concern for all clients and in particular my aunt. She seemed confused in front of the ombudsman and it was a no go. It could be that she received medication at that time but I would not know or coordinate when she might be lucid because I no information on her medical condition or medication. After the activity director and ombudsman left, I stayed with my aunt. She told me that the activity director was only this way because I was there visiting. She asked me to not stay long because 'they' get mad when I visit. I felt defeated in my efforts and overwhelmed at the thought and preparation for conservatorship.
I am picking up the ball again now.
How did he get the information about your withdrawal? He should not have that IMO.
I hope APS can help you. Let us know how it works out. You have a lot on your plate.
"To get a letter of incompetence from a doctor has been yet another obstacle."
Unclear if you mentioned this as a gate to applying for rep payee or just in general. If it is for concern about applying for rep payee, I can state I did NOT have any doctor's confirmation of mom's dementia. I brought a number of items with me to show I had been handling her financial and other affairs (she was still living in her own condo at that time.) They never looked at or asked to see anything I brought with me. So, if that was a concern about applying, I would suggest going ahead with it.
I also did not have any doctor confirmation when I took over her finances. Two of us were on her primary CU account, which was useful, but we were NOT on a local bank account, where her SS was deposited. Because she couldn't hear well on the phone, SS was rude to me and hung up. I took her to the CU and made change of address so I would get paperwork and checks, and I also made THEM process the SS deposit change (yes, the banks have this capability - they balked until I pointed to their own documentation!) Once that took effect, I took the POA document and her with me to the other bank to close the account and get the balance in a check to deposit in her CU account. They didn't know me from Adam, mom just rifled through her purse and wallet and said nothing. Not a peep out of them, they processed a check and closed the account.
The only time I needed something from a doctor was to get on as rep for her pension (also federal, so stricter requirements and POA was NFG.) THAT took a long time (her previous doc promised but never delivered what I needed despite calling them every month, several times/month.) First letter from new doc wasn't up to snuff. Took almost 2 years to get that worked out!
For conservatorship, the courts can/will likely assign a doctor to examine her to determine her capabilities. Even if you had a doctor letter, they usually bring in another doc, as well as an atty to represent your aunt. A person who is capable can hire their own doc and atty to dispute the request, as can others such as your cousin, if they are disputing, but they have to pay for their own. Not likely your aunt will do this. Cousin, maybe, but it'll cost them!
I don't know how long the court business would take, but you might get the funds safely tucked away quicker through SS and it won't cost anything.
Perhaps an emergency conservatorship due to the money transfer from her account would force the medical competence assessment and some investigation of any history of funny business or undue influence. The problem is that this is effecting me.
Hopefully there are enough funds to cover the cost of court and legal fees, as it should be her assets that pay for this, not yours. If not, use as much of her funds as possible without leaving her short for the NH fee. Although it might add more to the cost, it might be better to request guardianship as well. This would override cousin's medical POA and eliminate the transparency problem with cousin and medical bills. While it might mean some more contact from NH for your aunt, it should balance out the issues with being kept in the dark.
One other thought... If the other withdrawal was substantial enough, might Medicaid be willing to take cousin to task? Perhaps a call to them to inquire how to handle someone else adding themselves to the account and withdrawing funds would perk their interest...? Unless cousin can be honest, and show the withdrawal was legit and used for your aunt (suspect not, but we're not privy to what went on!), or it was a small amount, let it go, but do proceed with the legal aspects to get full control and have accounts they can't touch. Having a second person meddling in the finances makes managing things MORE difficult and could leave aunt short.
Sorry this has become such a pain. The "experts" all warn to choose wisely for medical and financial representatives, and preferably choose those who can work together. Cousin's responsibility is to your aunt, and making medical decisions, however when there are associated bills, cousin should be able to provide a minimum bit of info, to ensure it is legit, or have the bills sent to you. Being cryptic isn't helping. Sorry to hear about your mom too. Many plates to keep spinning, along with all your "normal" duties makes for hectic life!
I am so sorry!
And I know you took this position to help - as they say, “no good deed goes unpunished.”
You are correct to not answer any questions, in writing or on the phone. The facility is not questioning you, the family is. If they are doing this now, it will likely get worse.
To keep the cleanest records, avoid withdrawing cash (use more transparent forms of payment for goods and services) and make sure every expenditure you make is supported with clear documentation and receipts. Keep meticulous files. Take photos of the receipts because they fade and become invisible in a short time. Keeping perfect files now is much easier than recreating them later.
Don’t do anything inappropriate. In addition to being sued civilly, you could be prosecuted for a crime. If you have any questions about appropriate Medicaid spend downs, consult an attorney and follow the legal advice. Following unsound legal advice won’t get you in trouble like Medicaid fraud charges could if you make the wrong choice without following advice.
If you ever hire help, use a “nanny” payroll company to make appropriate withholdings and IRS reports. This may sound like a pain, but it is actually easier. It will cause less worry in the long run and save you trips to the bank now. If you get sued, the records production will be easier.
As legal POA, you could additionally be held responsible for any inappropriate withdrawal by another party “on your watch.” Clean up the accounts so this is less likely. Once the money is out of the account, you won’t ever be able to get it back.
Don’t put anything in writing, even over text. Know that phone calls could be recorded by the other party. Even if these types of recordings are prohibited in your state, don’t get caught discussing anything about this. The “friends” in your family may be attempting to gather evidence against you for the others. When it comes to money people change.
The heirs of your aunt can sue you, personally, for fraud and negligence (that they allege you are committing now), after her death, even if you do everything correctly now. Attorneys sometimes represent clients on a contingency basis in these types of cases (if there is a worthwhile estate or if you personally have money), so they would have no upfront legal bills in suing you. If you are sued personally, the estate does not cover your legal representation for your personal actions (legal bills are only covered in connection with your job as personal representative/executor, in some states, you can be sued simultaneously in both capacities for the same bad act or mistake (this requires you to hire a different attorney for every capacity in which you are sued).
You write that you are taking care of your Mom too - you can always “bow out” of this responsibility and let someone in your aunt’s family step up to help. They will likely only get worse (and less helpful or generous) as time goes forward.
After you finish this job, you will likely not be on speaking terms with them anyway so adjust your expectations now to save yourself heartbreak later. .
2) being financial POA means handling someone's finances as if you were that person. If said person wants to share the info and is competent, fine, but if not, it isn't ANY of cousin's business, relationship or not. As POA it is your responsibility to manage the finances and keep them protected (this includes not sharing the info with others who have NO need to know.)
3) cousin went out of the way to take aunt to the bank and get signed onto the account, without letting OP know. THIS goes against POA and aunt's medical condition (which cousin is blocking so OP can't get pensions redirected.)
Who's not developing relationship here?
From a recent post made by OP, appears that a cousin (likely the previous POA) has depleted aunt's assets before resigning... I think it was a different cousin, but perhaps they are siblings? Whatever the case, these 2 cousins have no business touching aunt's assets except to provide for her care. Clearly they are/were not doing that.
There should only be one POA and One Person allowed to withdraw funds and that person can be held responsible.
There should be no question regarding withdrawals from the Facility, as it's none of their business.
As far as your cousin goes, whomever takes out money should be written in a ledger that shows what it was used for along with receipts.
I have a 96 yr old Dad that I am his POA znd Executrix of his Will and what I did was just add my name to his Bank Act and write checks or do auto bill pay and that is your record of spending. In case anyone else would like to know.
The only people you would need to show proof to in the end after the Loved One dies, would be whoever is in the Will that was being left part of his estate
As financial POA, you have every right to know why cousin withdrew money!
You are legally responsible for Aunts money!!
I guess I am wondering why anyone other than you has access to Aunts account? That needs to stop!
I would suggest you talk with an elder care attorney or someone from her local Council on Aging.